MUST READ: The Revelation 12 Sign And Imminency
The circumstances surrounding the Revelation 12 Sign have been like nothing we've ever seen before in the Bible prophecy community. A myriad of independent researchers have come to the same conclusions about this sign and its significance unlike the one-man shows in years past (White, Miller, Whisenant, Camping, etc) yet a number of high profile preachers have recently come out vehemently against the sign refusing to address the specific evidence in support of it and labeling everyone who promotes it "astrologists". There seems to be a concern among some that suggesting a literal prophetic sign will be fulfilled on September 23, 2017 is an attack on the biblical doctrine of imminency.
Greg Lauer over at A Little Strength has some incredible things to say about this controversy. Whether you're already onboard the Revelation 12 Sign train or still standing at a distance, you need to read this article:
The Exit Sign
Greg Lauer over at A Little Strength has some incredible things to say about this controversy. Whether you're already onboard the Revelation 12 Sign train or still standing at a distance, you need to read this article:
The Exit Sign
I really value Greg's articles and have learned a lot from them. But this one puzzles me. If I understand this correctly, his position is that this sign could be like the blood moons - something that happens years before the actual event. In "The Sky Don't Lie" he said this:
ReplyDelete"The sign preceded the actual events, apparently by at least a couple of years.
Q. Why should the REV12 sign be any different?
A. I see no reason why it should."
If that is true - and it may be - then what Rev 12 is telling us is that the Rapture could happen at some point in the next few years. But didn't we already know that? I mean, even if I'd never heard of Rev 12, if someone had come up to me and asked "Could the rapture happen sometime between now and 2020?" I would have said "Absolutely". Wouldn't everyone? Why spend so much time and effort defending Rev 12 if it only tells us things we can easily establish without this chapter? The doctrine of immanency alone is enough to tell us that the rapture may be soon. I don't need a sign to tell me that.
One of the key features of a road sign is that it tells you how close you are to your exit. Road signs always have a mileage indicator beside the name of the destination city. A sign that lacks that key bit of information is kind of useless. I don't really need a sign that tells me my destination is some unspecified distance up ahead - I already knew that. Even exit signs communicate distance by telling you that the next exit is the one you want, and it's just a mile down the road. An exit sign that is 50 or 500 miles ahead of my turnoff isn't serving a useful purpose, especially if it's not going to be followed by another sign that says "Here is your road - turn off now".
Greg may be 100% right. He's brilliant and he makes a great case, and I mean no disrespect. But if he is right, this sign is not very helpful. A road sign that says "Nashville: 32 miles" is useful; one that says "Nashville: up ahead somewhere" is really not - especially if Nashville is still hundreds of miles away and in a different timezone. Why have a sign at all? Which sign would you call "great" - the first one, or the second?
My hope about the Rev. 12 Sign is that it signals the extreme closeness of the rapture which could even mean that the rapture might happen before this September (or not long after the end of this September, maybe sometime next year at max). We’ll see how it turns out.
Delete(A few more thoughts.)Jesus said that the generation which witnesses the first signs of the end times will witness the end of it too, His Second Coming. As many others, I believe so that the first big end times sign was the re-birth of the modern state of Israel in 1948. According to Psalm 90, the human lifespan is 70 years in general or 80 years if it’s a “generation of strength”. 80 years added to 1948 makes the year of 2028 the last possible year for the Second Coming and 2021 as the last possible year for the Rapture to happen. Of course it’s just speculation on my part. Nevertheless, I think the fulfillment of the Rev 12 Sign this September in 2017 confirms these possible “time-lines”. The Rapture could happen this year or the next one but if it happens in 2021, 4 years after the Great Sign’s appearance, well, what is 4 years of waiting compared to circa 2000 years of waiting? As I‘ve mentioned above, I hope that the rapture will happen sooner than 2021 and it could but we won’t know for sure until it happens. Greg’s article reconciled pretty well the Rev 12 Sign with the doctrine of imminence. And I agree with him, we should ask the Lord in prayers regularly to come for us and rapture us as soon as possible! “The Spirit and the Bride say, Come!”(Revelation 22:17)
DeleteFrankly, witnessing the high-speed of the process of prophetic fulfillments all around us, especially prophetic Middle-Eastern events and wars (like *the destruction of Damascus* and *the Ezekiel 38/39 attack* of the Gog-Magog nations on Israel) clearly and visibly looming on the horizon, I couldn’t imagine more than plus 2 years at max. before we’re out of here (via the rapture)! I could be wrong but that’s how I see things right now. (Not to mention that prophetic end time signs- containing wars and rumors of wars- are happening like “birth pangs” as Jesus said, they’re happening more and more frequently and in greater and greater intensity.)
DeleteJonathon --
Delete"One of the key features of a road sign is that it tells you how close you are to your exit."
I'm not talking about road signs in general, just a "NEXT EXIT" sign.
"An exit sign that is 50 or 500 miles ahead of my turnoff isn't serving a useful purpose."
Exactly. And as I pointed out in the article, that's why they don't put exit signs 50 or 500 miles before the turnoff.
"The doctrine of immanency alone is enough to tell us that the rapture may be soon. I don't need a sign to tell me that."
Yes, the doctrine of imminence has told us for two thousand years that the Rapture *MAY* be close.
Q. Now that you've spotted the REV12 sign coming up ahead, does it change in any way how you feel about the imminence mantra "the Rapture *MAY* be close"?
A. It sure does for me.
That was my basic point: The REV12 sign is fundamentally shifting our perspective. We are shifting from "the Rapture *MAY* be close" to "the Rapture *IS* close." And it's just like an exit sign: when you see it, you don't necessarily know precisely how far you are from your ultimate destination.
You only know that you are *finally* almost there.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but for the Rev 12 sign to be a confirmed fulfilled prophecy, since Jupiter represents the child who represents the body of Christ (believers), then one of two things must happen.
ReplyDelete1. At the completion of the sign (when the moon is at her feet), Jupiter will no longer be visible, possibly permanently, because the child (Jupiter) is removed, or
2. The child (believers) are snatched away.
If at least one of these 2 things do not happen, how will this be a fulfilled prophecy? I fully expect an event to take place by the time the sign is complete if not before. Not sometime in the future after the completion of the Rev 12 sign. As stated by Jonathan, I already knew that the rapture was very close. I hope this encourages someone.
Personally, I am content to just humbly observe what the Creator of the universe is doing, rather than specifying how I expect Him to do it.
ReplyDelete"As stated by Jonathan, I already knew that the rapture was very close."
And you do well, because it is. The REV12 sign certainly isn't the only sign out there that this is true. I never said it was, nor has anyone else around here.
It's just the most spectacular. =8o
I also am content to just humbly observe what the Creator of the universe is doing. Just putting the idea out there. If the planet Jupiter represents the child, then should we expect to not be able to see Jupiter after the sign is complete or for the Rapture too happen? Wouldn't either of those events have to happen in order for the REV12 sign to be complete. The article you wrote was great! I am in total agreement. My question shows that the Rapture could be imminent or on September 23, 2017, when the sign is complete. Or is it possible the alignment is not the REV12 sign? I am anxiously watching and waiting to see what God will do:)
Delete"If the planet Jupiter represents the child, then should we expect to not be able to see Jupiter after the sign is complete or for the Rapture too happen? Wouldn't either of those events have to happen in order for the REV12 sign to be complete."
DeletePersonally, I think you may be trying to read a *little* more into the sign than is warranted. Just my opinion. But we'll see. =:)
"Or is it possible the alignment is not the REV12 sign?"
No. I think we're well past that point. If it weren't, it would have fallen to pieces long ago.
Greg,
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think about bringing in Paul's metaphor of a "guardian," or "schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24) as an analogy for how we should view imminence?
Just as the early Jewish believers were wrestling with how to view the Mosaic law in light of Christ's first appearing, maybe we can make a case for a similar issue with reconciling the Rev. 12 sign and the "guardian" doctrine of imminence :)
I never thought about it in those terms, but it's an interesting idea. The more I think about it, the more I sense some parallels floating around in there somewhere.
DeleteThe law was given to the Jews because of sin, and was their tutor for nearly 1500 years to bring them *TO* Christ. This tutor made them purify their lives, but ultimately made them realize they *couldn't* and so needed Christ. When Christ finally came the first time and they began to believe, they no longer needed the tutor of the law. Those who believed were baptized into Christ, and put on Christ.
The blessed hope of the Rapture (i.e., imminence) was given to the Church, and has been our "tutor" for nearly two thousand years to make us more *LIKE* Christ. This "tutor" makes us purify our lives, and we realize that ultimately we *will* be purified at the Rapture. The REV12 sign is a sign that we area about to be fully birthed spiritually and finally become like Christ, and as we see the Rapture coming into our view we no longer need the "tutor" of the blessed hope, since the REV12 sign tells us that our hope is finally about to be realized.
I never thought about it in those terms, but it's an interesting idea. The more I think about it, the more I sense some parallels floating around in there somewhere.
Delete[thinking out loud...]
The law was given to the Jews because of sin, and was their tutor for nearly 1500 years to bring them *TO* Christ. This tutor made them purify their lives, but ultimately made them realize they *couldn't* and so needed Christ. When Christ finally came the first time and they began to believe, they no longer needed the tutor of the law. Those who believed were baptized into Christ, and put on Christ.
The blessed hope of the Rapture (i.e., imminence) was given to the Church, and has been our "tutor" for nearly two thousand years to make us more *LIKE* Christ. This "tutor" makes us purify our lives, and we realize that ultimately we *will* be purified at the Rapture. The REV12 sign is a sign that we area about to be fully birthed spiritually and finally become like Christ, and as we see the Rapture coming into our view we no longer need the "tutor" of the blessed hope, since the REV12 sign tells us that our hope is finally about to be realized.
[end thinking out loud]
Well, *this* is embarrassing. How do you delete a (defective) comment?
DeleteDoes a Delete button not show up for you on the bottom of your post?
DeleteNo. I'm using Firefox in Ubuntu Linux, FWIW.
DeleteIt's just that I kinda goofed up my post, and I thought I could just post it again the way I wanted it and then delete the first version. Oh well.
DeleteIt's no big deal...I'll know better next time. =:p
Please Greg, can you tell me exactly how anyone should understand the EXACT day and even day time given in 1 Corinthians 15,51-52 (= sunset at a FoT in endtimes era after 1948 fig tree event) as a biblical doctrine of "imminency"? I mean, you can't. Matthew 24,36 is an Idiom that hints to the FoT but as the church forgot about its Hebrew roots they named it " imminency " and transformed a Jewish Idiom into a wrong teaching tradition that now blocks every believer into a kind of ban of thinking.
ReplyDeleteRev12-sign was in scriptures about 2,000 years now like 1 Cor 15 is - but in fact God didn't REVEAL its true meaning to us until 2008 actually. It was SEALED. But that doesn't mean that there's " imminency " in bible doctrine. If you prove it right, nobody ever said that; neither Jesus nor Paul nor anyone else.
Blessings be to you!
Annabel, here's part of my problem with that line of thinking:
DeleteIf the apostle Paul had actually meant to inform the Corinthians that the Rapture was going to literally occur on the Feast of Trumpets by referring to the "last trump," don't you think the concept of waiting around for every annual FoT to see if the Rapture happens or not would be hinted at somewhere else in his writings? I mean, that would be HUGE. But that is a concept that is completely absent from the pages of Scripture. On the other hand, what virtually fills the pages of Scripture? Watch. Wait. Be patient. Be ready. Purify yourself so you won't be ashamed when He *DOES* come, because WE DON'T KNOW.
Now, I am not discounting any species of prophetic connection between the FoT and the Rapture. I'm sure there are...but I do *not* believe Paul intended to give us a big, fat clue about the Rapture's occurrence in real time. Like, "No man knows the day or the hour...HO HO HO," or "No man knows the day or the hour...gobble gobble gobble."
I'm not going to criticize anyone who makes that connection; but for this and other various, reasons I ain't goin' there.
Greg L.,
ReplyDeleteIn your article, you quoted one of the Bible verses that I've always had a bit of trouble with how to interpret it exactly. It's Luke 12:40, "Therefore be ready also, for the Son of Man is coming in an hour that you don't expect him." I could be wrong but I’m seriously entertaining the thought what if the rapture will happen exactly at the Feast of Trumpets (hopefully this year). What if the hints like “nobody knows the day and hour” as this feast was called by the Jewish people really means that the rapture will happen at this feast day. That would mean that even if we don’t know the exact day or hour we will expect His return! Same goes for knowing that we’re in the season of the rapture! BUT Jesus said that “…for the Son of Man is coming in an hour that you don't expect him." That’s what my problem is. I’ve always wondered how this verse sounds in the original language because if Jesus is saying something like, “Watch and be ready OTHERWISE my arrival will take you by surprise!” that would make sense. Don’t get me wrong I don’t want to put anything in His mouth that He wasn’t intended to say, I’m just wondering about the exact meaning of this particular verse, Luke 12:40.
(grammar correction: "...that/what He didn't intend to say..." sorry I guess it's full of errors grammatically, English isn't my first language.)
DeleteNora dear, me too I'm not native English... LOL don't bother. But I like your idea and want to encourage you to think it over and go further. As you go through these scriptures, for my part I cannot find neither such a thing as 'imminency' nor 'no one knows...' as both are teachings of men following certain lack of aspects and knowledge in scriptures because it was GOD who sealed this information up to our endtimes days (as I see it more clearly now). The "being catched by surprise" was in my opinion now ALWAYS spoken to those who a) left the Hebrew roots of Christianity like described here http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/9807/980715_c.html or they didn't catch the understanding of an ancient Jewish wedding ceremony like described here http://www.tasc-creationscience.org/content/ancient-jewish-wedding-missing-link-christianity and b) who did NOT watch but mock or ignore the sign like many do today either being 'big name bible teachers' (described in Luke 12,45-46) or scoffers from outside the church (described in 2 Peter 3,3-4). All true believers have scriptural promise to KNOW the EXACT appointed time to expect the LORD Jesus or the coming judgement from which they were / are saved then (Gen 7,4 + 18,17; John 15,15!). Remember Noah as possible picture of so called "imminency": He didn't know how long he would work on the ark when he startend, but seven days before the flood came (!!) GOD TOLD HIM THE DATE. Be blessed sister, MARANATHA
Delete"...but seven days before the flood came (!!) GOD TOLD HIM THE DATE."
DeleteThat's a very interesting point, and something that never occurred to me. Hmmm...
Nora, please don't think I am ignoring your comment. As a matter of fact, it's got me doing some serious chewing on something that might turn out to be worth sharing later.
DeletePray God gives me an extra dose of wisdom. =:p
Greg L.,
DeleteDon’t worry, I totally understand! “As a matter of fact, it's got me doing some serious chewing on something that might turn out to be worth sharing later.” I’m curious and happily waiting! :) And praying for the Lord to give wisdom to you!
Annabel....
Delete"All true believers have scriptural promise to KNOW the EXACT appointed time to expect the LORD Jesus or the coming judgement from which they were / are saved then (Gen 7,4 + 18,17; John 15,15!). "
This is incredible...so true! "As in the days of Noah & Lot"...thank you for sharing these insights!
Nora, I've been struggling with this as well, and I finally decided to simply delete that verse (Luke 12:40) from what I said in the article. I see now that it was a bit careless of me to include Luke 12:40 to begin with, and I really shouldn't have. I am convinced Jesus is speaking about His Second Coming in Luke 12, and so the verse really doesn't fit in a discussion of the Rapture and the doctrine of Imminence in the first place. Even though one might argue the same basic "no man knows the day or the hour" principle applies to the Rapture, I really shouldn't have incuded that verse in that part of a fairly "Rapture-specific" article. I see that it creates unintended confusion, and so I just deleted that one verse.
DeleteThank you for being the iron that sharpens *my* iron.
Annabel,
ReplyDeleteMany thanks for your kind words and for sharing these great articles! Love to read them! I’ve read studies on the Jewish wedding custom-parallels before and it’s always good to refresh my knowledge on them! Like this little gem: “The Bridesmaids: Unmarried friends who attend the bride and provide light for the groom who comes at night. This is a traditional custom for friends to light havdalah candles in the processional or during the veiling ceremony. Light is a symbol of God’s presence, the Shekinah Glory.” I remember the time when I tried to convince a brother that the *parable of the 10 virgins* isn’t about the Church who is the Bride not the Bridesmaids but my explanation was rejected! So many believers are clinging to the notion that the 10 virgins are representing the Church while knowing the Jewish ROOTS, the Jewish customs would help to clear up this misunderstanding.
"I remember the time when I tried to convince a brother that the *parable of the 10 virgins* isn’t about the Church who is the Bride not the Bridesmaids but my explanation was rejected!"
DeleteI feel your pain, Nora. I've been shouting it from the rooftops for years, and it ususally goes in one ear and out the other. This is one of many typical symptoms of the Church reading the New Testament through Church-colored glasses, and it's so deeply ingrained that it's hard to get through to even mature, pre-trib believers who are spot on in regard to just about everything else. The late Jack Kelly at www.gracethrufaith.com was the one who opened my eyes to a lot of this years ago. He passed away nearly two years ago, and I really miss his wisdom.
It's the same with people reading the Rapture into Matthew 24:29-31 and coming away with a post-trib view of the Rapture. They flip their Bibles open to Matthew 1:1 and think, "Ah, it's all about the glorious, victorius Church!" Matthew 24:29-31 is the direct fulfillment of several Old Testament prophecies about the gathering of the believing Jewish remnant into the land of Israel after the Second Coming to be ushered into the kingdom. It has absolutely *nada* to do with the Rapture or the Church, which is never mentioned and is nowhere in sight in the entire Olivet Discourse, in my humble opinion.
Dear Nora, dear Greg: please explain then WHO the bride / bridesmaids are representing if not the church? I mean, I don't want to go that far to reject it all. It was just to show the Matt24,36 Idiom. I still do understand the bride AND the bridesmaids as the church, this is a PARABLE: the bride ID the "corporate" body such as the male child in the pregnancy picture in Rev12 is. The bridesmaids are the "individuals" as believers, some are wise, others foolish and only confessing Christians. A parable does also not show all aspects but the main points. So we do have to discern that too how to read a parable. Blessings, dear brethren!
DeleteAnnabel and Greg,
DeleteGreg: The late Jack Kelley is my favorite Bible Teacher! :) His studies have always been a big blessing to me, I’m very fond of him! I miss his wisdom too! I hope that we’ll meet him soon!
Annabel: I have to admit that concerning the case of the parable of the vise and foolish virgins the jury is still out for me. Jack Kelley wrote a study series on the Olivet Discourse parables and according to him those parables are about the Tribulation Saints not about the Church! His reasoning is pretty good but I couldn’t decide just yet for sure. As I’ve been reading the ancient Jewish wedding customs yesterday, I’ve stopped in my tracks realizing that the Bridesmaids had to wait for the Bridegroom’s return for the Bride which could only mean pre-rapture conditions. Frankly, the only way I could fit this parable and the other one with the “talents” into the notion of the eternal security of our salvation is that the foolish virgins are representing people I call “cultural Christians”, or “cultural-only Christians” meaning that they aren’t born again, they don’t have saving faith in the Lord’s atonement for their sins on a personal level, they don’t have a personal relationship with the Lord, they are only following man made traditions, a “dead religion” out of habit because their community or families do that too. Or, they were simply christened as a baby in one of the Christian denominations and that’s it. I mean, they didn’t turn personally to the Lord asking for His forgiveness of their sins and their salvation. That’s what I call a “cultural- only” Christian, I was a “cultural-“or “cultural-only Christian” too before I’ve got saved. The Bridegroom, Jesus’ response to the foolish virgins and to the people who come to Him at the very end reasoning that they did *this and that* in His name is that “I don’t know you!” and “I’ve never knew you!” I’ve read it in a study that the original language word for “knowing” is a very deep, personal, intimate knowledge; actually it also has a sexual meaning too concerning marriage, like in Genesis when it was written about Adam and Eve that “Adam knew his wife” and Eve has gotten pregnant with their first child. So when the Lord is telling the people He rejects that He doesn’t know them and “never knew them” which is even more telling, He refers to that deep intimate personal knowledge only a saved person could have with Him through the Holy Spirit! Actually, to me that’s a confirmation of the eternal sureness of our salvation! If somebody has been once saved, why would the Lord say to them that He NEVER knew them! (Or don’t know them at all for that matter!) To me it means that the people the Lord doesn’t know or never knew were never saved. That’s why I think that the foolish virgins are unsaved people who never had the Holy Spirit in them. That’s my interpretation.
"...please explain then WHO the bride / bridesmaids are representing if not the church?"
DeleteForget the 10 Virgins for a moment--the larger issue is who the Olivet Discourse is directed at in the first place. The disciples were fully expecting Jesus to inaugurate the kingdom, which they knew would require an operational temple in Jerusalem. On His way from the temple back to the Mount of Olives with His disciples in tow, however, Jesus blew their hair back by informing them that the temple was going to be completely demolished!
They *knew* Jesus was the prophesied Messiah, and they believed they were on the brink of the kingdom. They were ready to get in on the ground floor--after all, in their minds, Messiah = kingdom. But Jesus' statement left them speechless--how on earth could the temple be rebuilt in time for the kingdom to be inaugurated?! There was no way! Suddenly they were confused and didn't know *what* to think. The disciples were desperate for answers.
So four of His very confused, Jewish disciples who knew nothing about the Church and less about the Rapture if that's possible approached Jesus that evening and asked Him three questions. All three pertain to Israel's future, and Jesus answered their questions.
So where do people get off cramming the Church into this? Where do people get off reading the Church into this discussion of Israel during the Tribulation, the Second Coming, and the establishment of the kingdom? Throughout the Olivet Discourse, Jesus couldn't *possibly* have made it any more obvious He was talking about ISRAEL--and honestly I get sick of hearing people try to spin it otherwise.
Now, in that context, we have the Parable of the 10 Virgins (Matt. 25:1-13) and it is effectively time-stamped as FOLLOWING the Second Coming (Matt. 24:29-31). And yet people *still* think this is about the Church.
(To be continued...)
OK, a couple of things to note about the 10 Virgins. Now, I agree that we should be careful to not try to squeeze every last drop of interpretive juice out of any parable, but some things are just drop-dead obvious. For example:
Delete-- Uh, where's the Bride? The Bride is never explicitly mentioned throughout the parable--her existence is assumed. Every word in Scripture is there for a reason and *not* there for a reason, and this is a big, fat clue that the parable isn't about the Bride at all.
-- Well, where *IS* the Bride? Where do you think she is? Where would you expect her to be throughout the main action of the parable? She's in at the wedding ceremony, and following that she is in at the wedding feast with her Bridegroom.
-- The Virgins are either granted or denied entrance to the wedding *FEAST* here on earth, which follows the wedding *CEREMONY* (which took place in heaven). This a picture of the Millennial Kingdom, and the Virgins are granted entrance if they possess the oil of the Holy Spirit, and denied entrance if they don't.
Being *permanently* sealed with the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is a blessing unique to the Church, who cannot "run out" of Him. But that's a deal that ends at the Rapture, and you can search Scripture until God creates a new heaven and a new earth and find no such guarantees of eternal security for those who come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation--they are NOT part of the Church.
*Note: This distinction is foreshadowed in John 20 by the scene where Jesus pops in on the disciples and Thomas isn't there, and later he refuses to believe unless he sees the scars. You know the line: "Blessed are they who have not seen, and yet have believed." That's us--the Church. People during the Tribulation are going to see more than they bargained for. They will see God's hand move in judgment, and according to Revelation 6:16, they will *know* it's God.
The Virgins (who were *all* sleeping when the Bride was snatched away) came to faith in Christ afterwards, and they will be required to maintain a faithful testimony to maintain their salvation.
The wise will--the foolish won't.
There's more, but that should do for now.
The OT backdrop of Psalm 45 may also shed some light on the order of things and the identity of the virgins in Matt. 25.
DeleteRecall that Ps. 45:6-7 is referenced by the author of the book of Hebrews (1:8-9), which has Jesus, "the Son," as the focus of Ps. 45. Notice that "the queen" stands at His right hand (Ps. 45:9). We can safely assume that the Church is the bride of Christ given the NT imagery, but also see the distinction made between "the queen" and "the virgins" in Ps. 45:14.
Notice also the order of events indicated in the text, prophetically speaking, "the virgins" are brought in after the bride. Look at Ps. 45:14 again and see that the Bride goes first and the virgins accompany her later.
In line with what Greg has stated above, the Olivet Discourse is not addressed to the Church, per se. We do a great error when we try to cram the Church into a context that only has the physical descendants of Jacob/Israel in mind...
Psalm 45!! Yikes!! When did they put *THAT* in the Bible?! =8D
DeleteThe reference to the virgins, and the parable... the 144,000?
DeleteGreg L,
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you on Matt 24:36. Jesus' response to his disciples was based on their questions (namely, when will this age end....meaning, when will the millennial age begin). No man knows the hour and the day is an answer to his Jewish disciples who were looking for the millennial reign to begin....IMO.
Also, is there scripture that commands us not to set dates? I'm not saying we should, but any attempt to study the signs of Christs return is often times smacked over the head with date setting. I've always taken it is truth, but where is the scripture to support that? Matt 24:36 doesn't give that directive IMO. Countless verses describe the second coming as a surprise.....TO THOSE NOT LOOKING, again IMO. Rev 3:3 (if thou will not watch, I will come upon thee as a thief)
Matt 24:48-50 (paraphrase...if the evil servant thinks his master delays, the master will return at an hour he is not expecting....meaning the good servant will expect the master's return).
There are other verses, but those suffice. When my kids were younger, they didn't know exactly when I would come home, but when the garage door would start to go up, they would run out to greet me (after the car was safely in).....never once did I scold them for running out to meet me. Luke 11:11-13 (paraphrase - if a son asks for bread, do you give them a stone.....how much more will God give to those who ask?). You do not have because you do not ask...rings a bell, yes? Scripture shows that God will not intervene without warning (for those looking)....again, this is my opinion. I don't think God wants our head in the sand, and I don't think we'll be scolding for watching for his returning.
Last point, Luke 15:20.....The parable of the prodigal son says, "that while the son was yet a long way off, the father saw him and ran to him". Why did he see him? I think because he was looking for him daily, and I think that is a model for us, again in my opinion. Anyway, good comments here!
Lance
This comment has been removed by the author.
Delete"Also, is there scripture that commands us not to set dates?"
DeleteThis is almost a trick question for many people. There are verses that people *interpret* as commands not to set dates, but don't explicitly say that. I think there are verses that tell us clearly that we will never *know* the dates of the big end-time events, thus rendering date-setting a fool's errand. This is something I think I will have more to say about later.
But again, and this is something I tried to stress in my most recent article, there is a big difference between genuine "I'm the Hotshot Who's Got It All Figured Out" date-setting and honest, responsible, Scripture-based or event-based speculation that could be right or wrong and promotes and invites further study. That's just us using the brains God gave us for His glory. And I hate it when I see sincere believers beaten up for it.
Concerning Matthew 25, perhaps it could be added as a hint that right after the parables of the virgins and the talents, the Lord started talking about the "Sheep and Goat Judgment" of the nations that closely follows His Second Coming.
ReplyDeleteExactly. I didn't go on about it, but both the 10 Virgins and the Sheep and Goats are judgments that determine who will be ushered into the Millennial Kingdom and who will not. That's their whole purpose. Some say the 10 Virgins are Jews while the Sheep and Goats are Gentiles, but I'm not dogmatic about it one way or the other.
Delete@ Greg @ Nora: Thank you very much indeed for the food for thought you gave me regarding the 10 virgins! I've gotta chew on that but yes, there's a lot about what you said. TY again!!
ReplyDelete@ Greg: the rapture date and even the day time is clearly given in 1 Corinthians 15,52. But it was then given as a "mystery" (v. 51) such as not to be revealed until the end of days (Daniel 12,4). Now if you take Isaiah 28,10 as a principle of collecting information throughout the bible, you take the fig tree parable (endtimes after 1947) looking for more catatrophic events on earth (birth pangs) ending up at Rev12-sign in 2017 and there you go. I got no problem with that. Compare to Noah (as I said before) in Gen7,4.10 ## = AMOS 3,7!! ## Glory be to the LORD! Much love to all of you here, great food! Have an awesome day :-)
PS: The FoT description in Lev23/Num29 was given to the Jews as a day OFF WORK (!!) but when rapture event is described in Matt24 there are people taken at work, so that means they either are non-jewish then or the Jews forgot about the commandment about the FoT until this time (which both is the case regarding the church majority from the Gentiles now and the Jews turning biblical FoT into non-biblical Rosh Hashanah). Any thoughts on this?
"Any thoughts on this?"
DeleteYes, I am personally convinced there is nothing in Matthew 24 that speaks to the Rapture. Period. It's all focused on Israel during the Tribulation, the Second Coming, and the judgments that follow on its heels. So...I can't really comment on the rest.
Nor do I believe 1 Corinthians 15:52 is a secret decoder ring that decodes the date (and time!) of the Rapture. I don't even want to get started on the reasons why, as I will likely have more to say about it at a later date.
Sorry I couldn't give you a cheerier response. =:[
Peace in Christ,
Greg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L9Yyi9VpS4
ReplyDeleteThis video shows the "dragon" in the heavens in Virgo that is being blocked out by google, etc.
@ Greg: Thank you for your response and rejecting 1 Cor 15,52 as a biblical indicator for time/season and daytime of the rapture. I don't think it will help then to inform you about this video then (talking of a US Niagara Bible Conference in 1878 when the term 'imminency' was first born in church history in 5 resolutions of that conference, following a guy named Arthur T. Pierson instead of A.J. Gordon) https://youtu.be/Lhvshi461xg So in fact, we do owe todays' understanding of 'imminency' to this guy from 1878 only and God knew that. Why should He not know any other things regarding rapture beforehand? But as you seem not further interested in this, thank you for taking your time here, case closed. I will get my information from God otherwise and He knows how to give it to me. Bless you Jesus, stay safe in Christ!
ReplyDeleteAnnabel,
DeleteMy take on 1 Cor 15,52 : IF the Lord's will for the rapture is that it should happen on a Jewish feast day, the Feast of Trumpets is a good candidate imo (next to Pentecost) and IF that is the case, then "the last trumpet" mention in the verse is probably a hint. (I could be wrong though, it's just speculation, I surely don't want to put anything to the Lord's word that might not be there.) IF the rapture happens at a FoT, it means that since the FoT starts when the Jews determine the appearance of the New Moon, the rapture will probably happen at nighttime for people in that time zone (myself included) and at day-time for people in the US for example. Again, these things are just speculations but I like to think about it. :)
@ Nora thank you, that's what I mean as well. If you have time to do so, check out the e-book of Brad Hurst in this link (esp. from page 36 following about the FoT) the prophetic meaning of all customs mentioned in there is stunning.
Deletehttps://rev12daily.blogspot.de/2017/06/day-nor-hour-date-setting-and-feast-of.html?m=1
Much blessings to you!
Many thanks for this link Annabel, I'll definitely check this out!
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