70-Hour Long Celebration Of Israel's 70th Anniversary Begins
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| Culture Minister Miri Regev unveils the logo for Israel's 70th anniversary celebrations |
Today marks the beginning of Israel's 70th anniversary celebrations. On the Gregorian Calendar the end of Israel's 70th year coincides with May 14th, but on the Hebrew Calendar the country's 70th anniversary begins today and ends tomorrow. Israel will be holding official celebrations for 70 hours, running all the way through Friday.
The 70-hour long celebration of Israel's 70th anniversary will include a beach party extending 70 kilometers along the Israeli coast. The celebrations will also feature the largest fireworks display in the nation's entire history.
Yet the largest celebration in Israeli history is happening at the same time the war in Syria is reaching a crescendo and there is now, for the first time, a real threat of a direct assault by Iran. It's also happening only months after the incredible Revelation 12 Sign and last week's prophetic symbol on the Temple Mount.
The partying and revelry remind me of one of the most infamous prophecies of all—that of 1 Thessalonians 5:3:
While people are saying, 'Peace and safety,' destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
As we've learned so clearly from Revelation 12 and other prophetic scriptures, Israel is that pregnant woman. Israel must enter into a period of hard labor in order for the country to finally recognize that Yeshua is the long-awaited Messiah. Yet while the "they" of 1 Thessalonians 5:3 will not escape (namely Israel and the world's unbelievers), the male child—the Body of Christ, the Church—most certainly will.
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Remember the Trump-Cyrus coin that Israel's Sanhedrin minted in preparation for the Third Temple? Now they are minting a second coin with Trump's image emblazoned on the front—this time in commemoration of Israel's 70th anniversary:
Pray for Israel! God Bless Gary.
ReplyDeleteThey definitely need our prayers. LORD, open the eyes of their hearts that they may see that YOU are the One they are looking for.
DeleteConstantly praying for Israel. We have understanding of the end game. I'm sorry to see Israel put so much hope in Trump. They see him a a Messiah and put faith in a man and not God. They are blind. Romans 1:18-23.
ReplyDeleteBrent, maybe you said something prophetic here with regards to Revelation 13... MARANATHA! ;)
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteתודה אבא תודה אלהים
ReplyDeleteHappy 70th, Israel ! You have a glorious future that God has guaranteed. Truly, the Messiah will rule from Jersualem.
ReplyDeleteI love 1Thessalonians 5:3 and I think it speaks volumes about these end times, especially when it is connected to the verses just before and just after. However, my understanding of these verses is much different than yours as I believe these verses describe what happens at the end of the 7 year tribulation period.
ReplyDeleteI prayfully challenge this group of pretrib believers to consider the following questions in regards to this revelation by Paul. Please study these verses like was shown once on that beautiful video by John Piper where he dissected and digested the message about the little flock.
According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, the resurrection and rapture happen immediately before sudden destruction falls on "them". So...
1) What is your definition of SUDDEN DESTRUCTION?
2) What is your definition of THEM/THEY?
Doesn't SUDDEN mean quickly, unexpectantly, and without warning?
Doesn't DESTRUCTION mean the action of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired?
If we are raptured at the start of tribulation, is this how you see the 7 year tribulation STARTING out - with sudden destruction? Does your reading of scripture say that things and people will be destroyed in a very quick and unexpected manner at the very BEGINNING of tribulation?
When I read from the books of Daniel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Thessalonians, and Revelation, I don't see evidence for that. Instead, I see a build up of tribulation that starts with the beginning of sorrows, the confirming of a covenant, and the rise of the Antichrist who is just starting to gain power. There is no sudden destruction to "them" at this point.
In fact, Daniel tells us clearly that the Antichrist will be successful until the end that is decreed is poured out on him (when Jesus returns). "They". - those who are unbelievers, and those who worship the beast and his image and who take his mark - are NOT DESTROYED at the start of tribulation; they are surviving and being successful. Instead, many of the people who are being persecuted and martyred are the saints. If you apply 1 Thessalonians 5:3 to the start of tribulation, then in essence you are saying that sudden destruction is coming upon your fellow saints whom you think are left behind. Are the "trib saints" really the "they" who are NOT ESCAPING? Of course not.
So think about who is the "they." When are "they" being suddenly destroyed? When do "they" not escape God's wrath?
They only conclusion I see is that this occurs when Jesus returns at the very end. He resurrects/raptures believers AND THEN pours out his bowls of wrath SUDDENLY unto "them" and "they" will NOT escape.
I pray for your discernment.
Tracey - While I hold to the pre-wrath view, I think the difficulty with the word 'sudden' is its limitations in giving us any time-frames that we can consider as part of the discussion. Jesus said in Rev 22:12 - "Behold, I come quickly". Now we have been waiting for that 'quickly' for 2000 years now. Another description for 'sudden' in the greek is also 'unforeseen' or 'unexpected', i.e. the destruction will not be expected, much like the flood was not expected until the day that the waters came and swept the unbelievers away.
DeleteThat being said - its a good part of the verse that should be considered more carefully...and Cathi has some good considerations noted below as well on this.
Ryan
Hi Tracy,
Deletethanks for the interesting comment. I believe in a Pre-Trib rapture so don't agree with your timing of 1 Thes 5:3 but always like new thoughts that make one think so you have done that : )
That said, I agree with Ryan's comment that the word translated 'sudden' can also be equally translated 'unexpected'. I believe this fits the context better. You see the people are saying 'peace and safety'. They think that all is going to be well and then the opposite unexpected thing happens... the day of the Lord begins bringing destruction.
So that brings in another timing question - when exactly are the unbelievers saying 'peace and safety'? Would they be saying this during the tribulation or at the end, as you place it, when Jesus returns? I think not. Why would unbelievers be saying peace and safety when seals and trumpets and bowls and judgement and chaos is occurring on the earth? They wouldn't. It is going to be a dreadful time unlike any before it. The best timing for unbelievers saying 'peace and safety' is right at the very start of Daniel's 70th week in my view. With the Antichrist's rise to power and his peace covenant made with 'the many' (likely to be more than just Israel but something that brings peace to the whole region) people will be thinking that there is peace and safety at last! "Someone has finally solved the unsolveable Middle East problem!" they will say. But alas it is actually the opposite.
I believe this ties in with the analogy Paul uses as well in 1 Thes 5:3 when he says the sudden or better unexpected destruction is like a woman with labor pains. There's that analogy again... the birth pains... The birth pains don't speak of the very end. They are the beginning of sorrows. This is not the end but is a pointer to what is coming (or better WHO is coming) at the end! But there is a lot of pain for planet earth before the birth and dawn of the new day arrives.
God Bless.
...in addition to 'elgordo' I'd like to add that there are in fact TWO "pregnancies" to consider (but which we have discussed long before now since last year, please do your own research on that to not be redundant here): a) the birth of the CHURCH in Revelation 12:5 and Isaiah 66:7 and b) the birth of the ISRAEL remnant in the following verses Isaiah 66:8-9 which Scott Clarke has very well commented as to describe the same "tent peg" fixing two different ends of the church and tribulation dispensations for the two different groups of saints involved.
DeleteElgordo - you bring up a very wonderful point and one that I only recently been blessed to understand.
DeleteI have wondered as you said, why are people saying 'Peace and Safety' during a time of great distress? Why would "they" be thinking that, ieven one bit, after all of this trouble has enfolded on the earth? The timing seemed way off.
And they I saw struck!
You see, I believe the day of the Lord commences the same time as rapture/resurection just occurred. I believe that Jesus comes on the last day. I also believe that the trumpets are part of the tribulation and not part of God's wrath. God's wrath is only the vials/bowls being poured out. As such, I also believe Rev 11 happens during the last 3.5 years...the two witnesses will be pophesying at the last half, during great Tribulation.
Now after you reread Rev 11, look what the witnesses are doing. They are torturing "them" with every kind of plague as often as they want. "They" most likely don't like this as it must be very horrible. In fact, "they" are probably not feeling very secure, and rest, or at peace. Then notice what happens. The 2 witnesses are stuck down by the beast and killed. For the next 3.5 days, what are "they" doing? "They" are CELEBRATING and gloating! Finally, after 3.5 years, they finally have PEACE and SAFETY!!! "They" think they won. But not so fast...as soon as "they" get comfortable, notice what happens. They are taken off guard (like a thief in the night). The 2 witnesses are raptured and then so are we....the SEVENTH LAST trumpet blows and we are called up into the air!
I know I am speaking to people who believe and love Jesus with their heart, soul, and mind and that is why I have been writing these posts. It is also why I feel comfortable telling you, that when I say that Jesus has laid this upon my heart in a very direct, undeniable way...in a way that almost feels miraculous, I am compelled to tell you. How could I not follow what has been laid upon my heart and still be called a faithful stewart? I am following what the Lord has commanded me to do. Please know I say that with the most genuine heart and intention. While this may not be a salvation issue, God loves you so much and he doesn't want you to be led astray by false teaching and prophesies. Do not be deceived.
God Bless!
Tracy...Thank you for sticking your neck out here. You are much better with words than I am.
DeleteTracy, This is all interesting:
Deletewww.itwasaplan.com/end-time-sign.html
From super blood moon 9-28-2015 to the Revelation 12 sign was 726 days – (and the one day in Jerusalem in 2017 that came closest to 726 daylight minutes was the day of the Revelation 12 sign (sept 23rd 2017)
DeleteFrom the Revelation 12 Sign to the next blood moon 7-28-2018 will be 307 days –
The Revelation 12 Sign (Sept 23rd, 2017) was interpreted as the “Rapture Sign” because of the context of Revelation 12:5 – like dna – too complex to be coincidence –
Strong’s Bible Concordance in 1890 cataloged every root Greek word in the Bible (over 5500 words).
Strongs 726 is Rapture “harpatzo”
Strongs 307 is I Draw Up “anabibazo”
Blood moons before and after the Revelation 12 Sign pointing to rapture. No Possible Way this could be coincidence.
Jesus said clearly that there would be signs in the sun, moon, and stars – and on earth anguish at the roaring of the sea (Luke 21:25)
Joel says the moon will turn to blood before the Day of the Lord !
The Eclipse 8-21-17 ended in the ocean in the very area where Harvey started.
The Eclipse started in the 33rd state (Oregon) and ended at the 33rd parallel (S. Carolina) on the 233rd day of the week. It was 33 days from the Revelation 12 sign. Harvey approached Corpus Christi (Body of Christ) and Victoria county who were told to evacuate (rapture) and afterwards went to Houston where they were not told to evacuate (left behind).
Billy Graham died on the very day that the Jewish people were reading about the death of Moses all over the world. Hear his daughter, Ann Graham Lotz, share at the funeral. She said after Moses came Joshua, and the equivalent is Jesus in the NT.
No Man Knows the Day or the Hour !
and let me conclude by saying I am not 100 percent sure of a pre-trib rapture. The complexity of the Revelation 12 sign is beyond question when everything is considered – including the conception comet (see youtube) and all the other components. God bless ! And one thing for sure – Jesus is Lord! and it seems very clear that the tribulation is at hand and we very well may go through part of it. Only God knows for sure. But I expect a pre-trib rapture soon. 3 verses after Luke 21:25, in Luke 21:28, Jesus said, When you see these things begin to come to pass, LOOK UP, LIFT UP YOUR HEAD, YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NEAR> God is good!
Tracy, if there was one question I would ask would be:
DeleteWhy are the 144,000 in Rev 14 called Firstfruits? In that Rev 7 makes it clear they are in the Tribulation at the time of God's wrath -
The Lamb is Victorious 4 Ever - Thank you for your comment and I will do my best to answer your question.
DeleteFirst, I just wanted to say that I am familiar with most of the connections you have presented, and I believe many of these are signs/indicators to prepare us for our Lord's soon return. That is how I have landed on this site. I eagerly watched and waited for the Rev 12 sign to occur on Sept 23rd.
However, I do not believe the signs we have seen to date are the signs spoken of in the books of Joel, Amos, Isaiah, Revelation, Matthew, and Luke. When you read Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 6:12-17, Amos 5:20, Joel 2:31, Joel 2:10, Isaiah 13:10, and Isaiah 34:15, hopefully you will notice that these are all descriptions of the same event...the things that occur when Jesus returns to resurrect/ rapture us which is also when the day of the Lord begins (God's wrath - the 7 bowls).
Luke 21:25-28 is reference to this same event...not to the blood moons, hurricanes, eclipse, etc. that we have been experiencing. Notice in verse 26 that men are fainting from terror because of what is coming on the world. It is a feeing of anguish and fear like explained in Jeremiah 30:6-7. Also notice how in verse 26 that the heavenly bodies will be shaken (e.g., stars falling to the earth, sky receding like a scroll in Revelation 6:14 and Isaiah 34:15). It is at this time...the time after the great tribulation, that we are told to look up because our redemption draws near.
Now in regards to your question about the 144,000. I am sure you know that Revelation is not a book that goes strictly in chronological order. If you miss that feature, it causes interpretation problems.
It is my firm belief that the trumpets occur prior to the resurrection/rapture as explained in the 6th seal. At times there is an overlay of information or a backing-up process in order to provide a much closer focus upon those last days that lead up to God's wrath (7 bowls only).
The 144,000 are sealed before the trumpets and they go through at least the 5th trumpet according to Revelation 9. However, as stated earlier, the trumpets are not God's wrath, so they are not going to experience His wrath.
We are not resurrected/raptured until the 7th trumpet which also corresponds to the 6th seal. Revelation 7:9-17 is a picture of what just happened after the rapture at the end of tribulation. ALSO, Rev 11:15-19 is another look/perspective of the same event just before wrath, judgment, and rewards happen. ALSO, Rev 15:1-3 is another look of this same event with a look at the martyred saints from tribulation in heaven before the wrath of God is poured out to rest of the earth (the "them/they" I talked about earlier).
Again, I realize what I presented is not in line with what most of you have come to believe. However, I share this in hopes that at least some of you will ponder these statements with the help of the Holy Spirit.
God bless!
Sorry I meant Isaiah 34:4 not Isaiah 34:15
DeleteTracy...You nailed it. As we witness future events unfold, your gold nugget post will slowly unveil it's 100% truth. You and I are on the same page except are outlined without substance, and you provided the substance. I just wanted to say it without explaining, and possibly earned the mistrust post from Edd.
DeleteI feared if I said anymore, I would be banned as others with similar beliefs. Tracy here is doing it with more of a love of Christ veil, and it will be interesting the next few years it will take for her last post to unfold. I am ecstatic how much she said with brevity. Her statement could be put on a business card.
Bottom line is that our salvation is not determined by having the correct order of world events as it pertains to the one resurrection that transforms us to be FACE to FACE with Christ....and receive his Sonburn.
God bless everyone here
Hi Tracy,
Deletethanks for the followup thoughts. Again, I may not agree but appreciate you stating what you believe and why. And I see there is a new "Tracy fan club" just started with Stan the man you're number one fan! I'll try not to write too much as I don't think he will like this reply : )
1. Do I think that Paul, when writing to those at Thessalonica about 'peace and safety' was alluding to something that scripture had not yet revealed (the celebration of the world when the two witnesses die) and wouldn't be revealed for another 40 years? No I don't.
2. If you place the two witnesses ministry in the second half of the tribulation then bear in mind that the length of the Antichrist's reign is exactly the same length as the two witness, 42 months / 1260 days (Rev 11:3, 13:5). As the Antichrist's authority and reign is brought to an end by the coming of Christ (2 Thes 2:8) then you have the Antichrist killing the two witnesses on the same day Christ returns and puts an end to him! And then, to top it off, you'd have the world celebrating the death of the two witnesses, saying 'peace and safety' for 3 1/2 days after the One who who 'comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations' has arrived. They aren't going to be celebrating or saying peace and safety then. It doesn't make sense.
3. I believe it is better to place the ministry on the 2 witnesses in the first half of Daniel's 70th week. Their death is at the mid point when the Antichrist. indwelt by Satan, puts himself in the temple and proclaims himself to be God. Killing the witnesses proves His authority at this point. This also fits better with Jesus' clear command that those in Judah have to flee for their lives at this exact time. (Matt 24:15-21, Rev 12:14-17) The second half of the trib is not a time to be hanging around Jerusalem!
4. It's a side issue but I'd also disagree (sorry... not trying purposefully to be overly disagreeable here!) that the trumpets aren't part of God's wrath. The bowls are said to 'complete' the wrath of God, not contain them fully (Rev 15:1). The wrath of God is recognized as far back as the 6th seal (Rev 6:16) And besides that, you just have to look at the nature of the trumpets to see they are the judgement and wrath of God. They all originate from the heaven throne room, they are all enacted through God's command to His angels and they cause incredible destruction on the earth. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... we'll you know!
I'm sure we would agree on many other things... just maybe not the timing of the rapture and some events in the trib it seems!
God Bless.
First, I would like to thank Stan for all of his support and comments. I mean, come on, it’s a tough crowd in here :)
DeleteSecond, Elgordo, thank you for reading my comments, spending time thinking about what I posted, and replying in such a thoughtful manner. I know we must agree on a lot since we are both joyfully and eagerly waiting for the return of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
While my intentions were not to debate point after point about the timing of the rapture, I would like to respond to the statements you made. Also I will leave you with one last comment that I ask you to prayfully consider.
1) Did you know that Paul was caught up to the third heaven where he was privy to much information? (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) Did he not teach about a mystery not yet revealed? (1 Corinthians 15:51-54) Is it not possible there are other things he learned that he shared with people even though the full intent of the message was not meant to be discovered or revealed until a later time? Isn’t that what happened with other prophets? Didn’t Isaiah, Daniel, and Jeremiah speak of prophesies and visions that were to take place hundreds, even thousands of years in the future? While their writings were available to people for centuries, the true meaning would not be understood for many, many years to come. Therefore, I see absolutely no problem in Paul writing about something that was to be revealed at a later time.
2) The saints will be handed over to the Antichrist for 3.5 years (Daniel 7:25), but remember that the time that the daily sacrifices is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days (Daniel 12:11). Therefore, there is still time (30 days) between the 2 witnesses’ resurrection (which ultimately will be our resurrection/rapture too) and the pouring out of the 7 bowls of wrath which includes the 7th bowl at Armageddon where Jesus destroys the Antichrist. There also is “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive…” passage that may play out here. (Matthew 24:22)
3) You are correct. The second half of the tribulation is not a time to be hanging around Jerusalem. That is why Israel will be taken care of for 3.5 years in the desert, out of the serpent’s reach (Revelation 12:14). Do you think the 2 witnesses purpose is ONLY for the Jews? Isn’t the Lord merciful? Isn’t it his wish that none perish and all come to repentance? (2 Peter 3:9) Couldn’t it be that the 2 witnesses are placed at the last half of tribulation (a time of great trouble) in order to prophesy AND torment with plagues so that ALL unbelievers will turn to him? When you read Revelation 9:20-21, at the end of the 6th trumpet, you see that there is still OPPORTUNITY for people to repent even though they choose not to.
DeleteI also place the 2 witnesses at the second half of tribulation for the next 2 reasons:
-Study the earthquake that happens right after the resurrection of the 2 witnesses. (Revelation 11:13) Does it sound familiar? Notice how it is a severe earthquake that causes 1/10 of Jerusalem to collapse. While there are a few earthquakes mentioned throughout Revelation, this one sounds an awful lot like the one described in Zechariah 14:4-5. They both are severe, they both occur in Jerusalem, they both cause the city to split or collapse. Jesus is returning at this time! Right after tribulation, right after the 2 witnesses are resurrected (which includes our rapture), and right as the 7th trumpet sounds. The 6th seal description in Revelation 6:12-17 also describes an earthquake (it is the same one) as well as the celestial events noted by Matthew 24:29-31 when Jesus returns to gather (rapture/resurrect) all the elect after the great tribulation.
-1 Corinthians 13 – one of my most favorite chapters in the bible! Have you ever studied verses 8-12? I was amazed to see that timing of our rapture/resurrection is mentioned in there…look really close. When do PROPHESIES end? Right now we know in PART and we prophesy in PART. We see through a glass darkly, but when perfect (Jesus) comes, we will see him face to face! When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in PART all be done away. When we are raptured, we will see Jesus face to face and there will NO LONGER BE PROPHESY. It is inconsistent then to say that if we are raptured before the 7 year tribulation starts, and we see Jesus face to face, that there would still be 2 witnesses PROPHESYING.
4) I don’t think the angels blowing the trumpets have anything to do with whether the trumpets are considered God’s wrath or not. Notice that Jesus’ own hands are opening up the seal! If you apply that same thought process to the seals, then you are also saying that the 7 seals are wrath. Also, did you know that the word “completed” also means accomplished, achievement, fulfilled, carried out, and perfected?
DeleteNow for my comment that I would like you to consider. Believe me when I say that I post this out of love. I believe strongly that we are one body with many parts and so if one part suffers, every part suffers with it (1 Corinthians 12:26). I am sorry if this comes across harshly, but it is hard for me to see brethren being deceived.
When I read Jeremiah 23: 16-18, I think it speaks to the doctrine of pre-tribulation. But don’t take my word, ask the Holy Spirit.
This is what the Lord Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you will FALSE HOPES. They speak VISIONS from their OWN MINDS not from the mouth of the Lord. They KEEP SAYING to those who despise me, ‘The Lord says: You will have peace.’ And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts they say, ‘NO HARM WILL COME TO YOU.” But which of them has stood in the council of the Lord to see or to hear his word?”
May God be with you!
Tracy...The more that time passes by and events occur, with us still here, more and more will start realizing how true your excellent posts are.
DeleteMay I suggest everyone here mark on your calendar April 20, 2018. Check next April 20, 2019. We will still be here. Repeat April 20, 2020. We will still be here. Even April 20, 2021...we will still be here. I can't guarantee any further because if the A.C. arrived and performed the A of D within 6 months ...then yes, we will be raptured out of here before April 20, 2022.
We could debate this till Jesus comes back.....and the earliest would be 3.5 years from now if the A of D happened today.
Thanks Tracy for the reply. I appreciate it. Though tempted, I'll bite my tongue on responding to the points raised : ) Probably not going to help at this stage. But I did want to comment on what you said at the start of our post.
DeleteYou said it is a tough crowd here... I haven't been on this site long enough to know what you've experienced in the past or how 'tough' this crowd is. Hopefully you haven't experienced personal attacks. I can understand that being post-trib or pre-wrath on a (mostly) pre-trib site has it's challenges! That said, I expect being a pre-trib believer in a pre-wrath forum would be worse from what I've seen.
Anyway, I believe wholeheartedly in being able to debate and discuss different interpretations of scripture while always realising that we are speaking to a brother or sister in the Lord. I think we have done that. Most here seem gracious in their responses but if I see it correctly, what can grate with people is (dare I say it) comments that come over with a hint of arrogance. The kind of "you should listen to me cos Jesus told me this and you are currently deceived, listening to false prophets and if you listened to the Holy Spirit you would see that and not fall away in the tribulation" type approach (ok I'm mixing approaches by you and Stan into one there.)
It may come as a surprise that us blind deceived pre-tribers do actually listen to the Holy Spirit and strongly desire to learn from the Lord as well! Odd that! : )
So if you are finding it a tough crowd, maybe it is more the approach that is taken that is causing some reactions than just our theological differences which (hopefully) we can all discuss and debate in a friendly and gracious manner.
Maybe something to think about going forward. If not, well, that's 25 minutes I won't ever get back :)
God Bless and thanks again for your time in clearly stating what you believe and why. We are both watching and desiring HIS return!
Elgordo - that you for your comment and feedback; this week I have been studying and trying to apply "quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger," (James 1:19), so this is a nice reminder for myself. However, as you know, tone is a tricky thing when communicating via text. If there was a "hint of arrogance" in my posts, I am sorry. That is stemming from my passion and sense of urgency.
DeleteI am not sure if you have ever thought of it before, but I wholeheartedly believe the Master of Deception is behind all the division among Christians who hold to such different end time doctrines such as pretrib and posttrib.
Clearly, there is only ONE right TRUTH; there is only one way it can play out in the end. There is either a pre, mid, or post trib rapture and resurection. We can't all be right. Therefore, Satan IS deceiving people! Plus he is working on both sides, trying to stir up anger and strife among the brethren as he drives a wedge through the body of Christ.
When I read that Jesus warns us not to be deceived during these last days, I understand that he is warning us of many deceptions that are coming, but one of them being about this very topic and situation.
So at some point, a conscious descision is made as to what side one takes...a decision I did not take lightly....as to whether a person follows pre, mid, or post tribulation rapture. While it isn't a salvation issue, it is one that is being influenced by Satan himself, and one he continues to be a part of as he works in the hearts of Christians to stir up anger no matter which side of truth one stands alongside.
I guess we will not know for absolute certainty which side was right until it all plays out in the end. Howvever, this is why I bring the Holy Spirit into this discussion and it is why I pray for our discernment. Yes, as born again believers of Jesus Christ, who is our Lord and Savior, who is our truth, life, and way, we all have the Holy Spirit within each one of us. However, "we" clearly aren't ALL asking for guidance and teaching, and truth from Him. If we were, we couldn't be so divided as we are. God is not the author of confusion.
So, again, I apologize if I am pointing fingers or sounding arrogant. BUT after I realized that we are fighting against principalities on this topic, I made a conscious decision to take a firm stand and do my best to communicate what I believe the Holy Spirit has laid heavily upon my heart. You may think I am the one being deceived, and maybe you are correct, but let's never forget just how cunning that serpent is. That is why I ask you, and anyone else on this site who reads this post, to keep praying about this topic and our discernment. Ultimately we have Jesus' shoulders to stand on, but it sure would be nice if we were more unitied.
God Bless!
Tracy, that last comment was a total fail for so many reasons. I hope I get a chance to respond but right now I cannnot fully. You are coming off extremely full of yourself. And YOU are causing division.
DeleteMiguel - I am sorry that you are offended by what I said and that you think I am causing division. But the truth is, the division already exists. Two minutes spent on YouTube will clearly show that.
DeleteI am sincerely trying my best to be kind and to teach in a loving way. If I boast, it is only in the Lord and his written word. I am putting myself out there for that one and only reason.
I make statements and ask question that are backed by scripture as written in 2 Timothy 3:16. How else do you suppose I relay this message?
I am not trying to just throw out my 2 cents on this topic or to have people question their current beliefs for no reason. While I will freely discuss any point that I may be able to adequately address, at some point, the elephant in the room needs to be acknowledged. That is the reason for my last comment, harsh as it may have sounded.
When I said I am praying for discernment and understanding, it is a prayer I make for all of us, myself included. I am not immune to deception and temptation. That is why I cling to the cross, pray constantly, stay in His word, and do my best to follow what the Lord asks of me. I also pray for my brethren as well as unbelievers.
Jeremiah 15:16, "When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart's delight..."
God bless
Tracy, I can hardly bear the pain that is caused by your words. The confusion, the sadness and the distance that I have felt is profound.
DeleteYou say we are not all asking for guidance from the Holy Spirit and that is why there is confusion. Reconciling the fact that there appears to be spirit lead believers on two sides of this argument is difficult, but implying that the people who do not see what you see are not listening to the Holy Spirit is arrogant and hateful. I can assure you I am seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance. I was happily reading your arguments until you offered this severe and incorrect criticism. You say we are a tough crowd. It sounds as if you were assuming that because we were not responding and that there was only a couple people offering counters that it was because we were looking down on you. We were not. No, we were not. I can speak for many others here because I know their voices as my beloved brothers and sisters.
We want nothing more than to hear and listen to the voice of our Savior. Nothing hurts more than feeling we are in disobedience. If you have wisdom or knowledge to share, then share it, do nothing more than that. When you cross that line, you transgress. When we cross that line, we transgress.
Prophecy rarely makes total sense until it is fulfilled. This is often a crucial feature. We are looking for understanding. We are seeking to understand the hidden secrets buried in His word, which only He can reveal and only at a time that He sees fit. He is my hope and the overflow of my heart. My brothers and sisters would say the same. We have many different gifts. We see from different angles. We see dimly. This is all I can say at the moment.
Lord, may I cherish every bite of Your words, for they are my greatest joy and nourishment to my soul. Amen.
Miguel - I am incredibly sorry to have caused you so much hurt. Please know that was never my intent at all. Truly, it hurts me to know that I caused you pain with my words. And for that, I will humbly ask for forgiveness.
DeleteYou request of me that if I had knowledge to just share it and move along. While I don't post often, that is what I have done in the few posts that I have made over the last several months. However, what I have noticed is that when I do that, my words seem to fall along rocky paths and never take root.
While you may doubt my sincerity or the truth of my words, or just dislike the manner in which I have expressed myself, all I can say is what I have experienced and come to know as more than just "I believe..." or "I think..." in the last 2 months has been laid very heavily upon my heart. So with that, I ask, "With whom do I share this knowledge? Do I keep it to myself like the lazy and wicked servant who hid his talent? Is it not right to share it with people who also are so in love with the Lord?"
The reason I have been so passionate and bold this time around is because I feel like I shared understanding of things that I truly believe were revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. Some of what I have said I have never read or heard elsewhere. Things I have treasured deep in my heart. Priceless pearls that I did not want to throw to pigs but instead to share with people who also are anxiously and eagerly awaiting Jesus' return.
I knew I was taking a risk sharing on this platform, but it is what I believe I was asked to do. I do not make that statement lightly even though I know you will read it as arrogance and self-righteousness. I will leave it up to God to convict my heart if that is the case. If you knew me, you would know how truly in love I am with the Lord and all people. And it is for that reason only that I made the statements I have.
I wish I could say that everyone here has treated me fairly and kindly, but there have been a few who haven't. One has accused me of not loving the Lord and another has shown me the exit door. And so out of respect for you and the wishes of others on this site, I will no longer comment on Unsealed. But my prayers you will always have.
God bless!
Tracy, I did not suggest you move along after sharing your knowledge. No, I say keep sharing your discoveries. What I don't like is accusation. You made accusation that if we didn't hear or see what you saw or heard, then we didn't listen to the Holy Spirit. I considered and even enjoyed the scriptures and interpretation you brought.
DeleteYes they present a challenge that maybe we have to endure more than we want to endure, so that makes them hard to chew, but so what. Let us process, let us tell you if we don't see what you see, let us tell you to explain yourself. But dont accuse. I'm not saying a rebuke is out of line if warranted , but I did not see the warrant at all. Elgordo had been very good about dialoguing with you nicely. STAN backed you up. Most were silent. My silence was my practice of James saying quick to listen and slow to speak.
I do not feel you must go, dialogue is good. I just felt the sting of being told I am not hearing the Holy Spirit.
Your words are not falling on rocky soil and it does not sound arrogant to say you are sharing because you felt God wanted you to. That's what most of us do.
You are getting resistance for two primary reasons, in my opinion. First because there are strong opinions that contradict yours and second because what you are saying puts us here at least another three years. Many of us are gut wrenched everyday seeing the world around us and cannot imagine the pain of even another week let alone years. We cling to Christ regardless.
I have to stop again. I forgive you, no problem. I'm just asking for you to slow your roll a little, as their are people like me who are just trying to catch up and keep up while seeking the Holy Spirits guidance. It takes time. That's just my two cents. I'm sorry if I have been hurtful or unloving to you or anyone.
Hi Tracy... I realize I can't speak for all but I'd like to add my voice to Miguel's and say 'no, don't go!' (I write that realizing that probably everyone on this post has already packed up, gone home, fled the party and left me talking to myself! :) But... but if for some strange reason you are still around Tracy... please don't think you need to go or not comment anymore. I'd hate to think that I was part of you putting down your pen here for good.
DeleteIron sharpens iron as the scripture says. You and I may don't currently agree on the timing of the rapture... but that's ok... no sweat!.. you're still my sister! : ) If eschatology was so clear and simple then we wouldn't have had 2000 years of debate on it! And having a different view on the timing of the rapture doesn't mean one of us is 'deceived' by the enemy. It's not disagreeing on salvation or who Jesus is here. We are both studying 'to show ourselves approved' so we can 'rightly divide the word of God.' (2 Tim 2:15) You may emphasize certain points that you believe point to a post-trib rapture... I see others pointing to Pre-trib. Like I said, that's ok. We can still learn from each other even if we see some things differently.
And we all (not just you and me) need to learn to communicate our thoughts in a gracious manner when we disagree. One of my BIGGEST bugbears over the last 10 years or so is seeing Christian debate (over many topics but especially the rapture for some reason) turn quite septic online. It seems many Christian's are learning from, and sliding down with, the world in this regard. So I'd hate to think that you feel you can't comment here. Don't go. Just relax a little in how you word it! : )
Hopefully you are still floating around this post (else that's another 30 minutes I won't get back! ;)
God bless. And I'll be looking out for your next post on whatever article it comes! When you feel the time is right, pick your pen back up!
Elgordo, thank you for your encouragement and reassurance, and Miguel, thank you for your thoughtful reply and your loving forgiveness towards me.
DeleteI will consider what you said about continuing to dialogue here as I know God desires from us faithful fellowship and our reasoning together. With that said, there is large part of me that feels like I have already spoken what I have wanted to say. Plus I do recognize that this site is predominantly for Pretrib believers who are looking for confirmation and reassurance and not necessarily for their beliefs to be questioned. I assume there are many who may see me as a wolf in sheep clothing whose main goal is to disperse the flock. But, oh how I wish they could see me as a small shepard girl who is trying to warn the village of the big bad wolf who is about to come in order to destroy the flock.
I appreciate both of your willingness to consider the interpretation of scriptures I brought forth as I know it takes courage and a leap of faith to do. Thank you.
May the Holy Spirit CONTINUE to guide and teach you, as I know he already is :)
God bless,
Tracy
Tracy, it is fine if you feel you have already spoken what you wanted. I do not require more. I am still processing what you have offered previously. If the Holy Spirit gives you more, then I say feel free to share, but if not that's ok too.
DeleteChallenges will always do two things. One, they will cause dispersion as you have mentioned. If someone runs, it may be they were not a sheep. (A true shephard will chase a goat or enemy away. A wolf on the other hand will chase sheep away.) But, two, they will promote a deeper relationship with Christ and more profound understanding of Him.
Tracy, is it your warning that believing in a pretrib rapture could set us up for disappointment and a crushed spirit to the point of thinking the Bible was a farce? Is that what you are saying? Is that what Luke 21:8 is saying?
I think it is time to be honest about my opinion regarding the rapture. This is only my opinion and may very well change. I am still in the process of searching the Bible for my self and seeking His guidance. I read Daniel, Revelation, Matthew 24, Luke 21 and some other passages and I cannot see a clear timing. I see clear warning to watch and to be ready and to look up, but I also see Luke 21:8 as saying that I should not follow after anyone that says the time is near. Gulp! And yet I see Jesus and these passages as telling us the season, so how do I reconcile all of this? The idea of watching and warning comes from Ezekiel; that is quoted often in these forms and on these sites. But should we all be sitting on the wall? Doubtful.
There are some thoroughly experienced watchmen and watchwomen in these forums with years of study of scripture (Gary, Brad, Jeff, Greg, Sherry, Shiela, to name a few). I listen and consider when they tell me they have become staunch in their sureness of pretrib. But there are some who comment, like yourself and Stan, who give me pause, because they seem to offer similar credentials. I am undecided, but I lean toward pretrib. If that is considered scandalous and lowers anyone's opinion of me then so be it.
I do not want to be on earth any longer; I wish I was with Christ and the Father right now. So imagining that that finish line is only a few weeks away at most lets me keep running even though I am out of breath and my legs are jelly. At the same time, I remind myself not to get discouraged if it takes much longer and I have to watch the world burn around me while I cling to my beloved Savior. If that latter scenario happens, I hope that God pours His Spirit out on Christians in a remarkable way giving us the strength and the voice and the closeness we need to smile while our heads are lopped off.
I hope I am not throwing anyone off or making anyone stumble by revealing my thoughts. The Lord already knows all of them. The thing that I have been most comforted by in the last several weeks is that Jesus encouraged the little ones to come to Him and said they would inherit His kingdom. Some of the brothers and sisters here are grown, and I feel small around them. That is ok. And some might even judge me for my lack of understanding. But I know Jesus really loves me no matter how little I understand.
Much love to you Tracy.
Romans 8:38-39
Miguel and Tracy....My hat is off you two passionate people with different views, coming back in such a loving way. It made my heart have a warm rush of peace go through it.
DeleteI only entered back into commenting here after Tracy showed up with very similar studies I have come across.
However, I am not a debater, and am the type that if you ask me what time it is, I will simply state the time. Tracy, on the other hand, and bless her heart will not only tell the time, but also how to build your own clock.
My occupation is building curved stairways, and the last one I am going to make is the stairway to heaven. There are other stairbuilders that comment that I build my stairways differently than they do. I realize that if they build their stairway their way, and I build my stairway my way, we will both make a beautiful stairway that gets us to the next level.
Debating whose way is best is mute ,just as long as we both succeed in building our stairway.
Same thing with our different perceived paths to heaven. Our salvation in Jesus Christ shedding his blood for us sinners builds our each individual stairway to heaven. We don't agree when we start that journey, but we all agree it will be at the same time.
In closing, I have been labeled as one not to be trusted. I do not wish to continue debating why I disagree. With this beautiful example of God's love between Miguel and Tracy...I just want to stay in the corner and feel the peace.
God bless you Miguel as it takes a true MAN to say what you said to Tracy, and God bless you Tracy for what you said in return, that took a real WOMAN as well.
Thank you brother Stan. Colossians 1:3-14, especially verse 10 for all of us.
DeleteStan - Thank you for those very kind and loving words. I am filled with much love, peace, and encouragement over these last few exchanges!
DeleteMiguel- I hear your weariness and anxieties as you speak from your heart. I have known those feelings well. Acts 2:17 tells us, "In the last days, God says, I will pour out my spirit on all people." He will provide all we need to get through, to shine, and to glorify his name. God will never leave us. Luke 21:14-15 reminds us not to worry. Jesus tells us, "Make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict."
Take comfort that the Holy Spirit will still be here during tribulation...he has not up and left in a pretrib rapture...God promises not to abandon his children. He will give us everything we need, even when it seems like our darkest hour, he will provide abundantly. Matthew 7:11, "Our father wants to bless us and give us good things."
A very dear friend and brother in Christ of mine offered the most beautiful prayer of peace to settle my own anxieties. And the blessing I received was overwhelming as it calmed my spirit, stilled my heart, and assured me of Jesus' undying love for me. While I in no way could replicate such a wonderful prayer like the one he gave to me, I will pray a pray of peace for you and leave it in Jesus' hands.
Miguel, I pray that Jesus will lift you from all your fears and weary heart. So that you will know without doubt that you belong to him and he is near. Cast all your worries upon him and rest in his abiding love.
May God's peace and good grace be with you!
Tracy
Tracy, that was dessert!. Thank you.
DeleteIt is refreshing to see God' peace flowing here. I have discerned Tracy as not even so much having a fleeting thought of discord here through her excellent posts that as the next few years pass , will find more and more validated.
DeleteThank you Tracy for sharing your heart felt beliefs that have a price to share. This world has a lot of problems, but...it has a lot of good also. The news focuses 99% on the negative, and if it would focus equally on the good stories, this world God gave us has a lot of good in it. What we have to decide is do we want to help pull the world around, or are we going to be a drag on it. We have lots of potential to pull on this world by appreciating what we have, and trying to make it better one person at a time.
Last thing (I think). Tracy, I am realizing that I could have worded some of my responses/rebukes to you more nicely. I am very sorry about that.
DeleteMiguel - No worries! My immediate response was to repair the hurt and not to take offense by it. Like I mentioned somewhere in this thread, we are all one body in Christ and when one part suffers, I suffer with it. And again, I apologize for my part in that hurt.
DeleteGod bless!
Also, one last thing from me (maybe)...thank you Miguel for reflecting back on that and for saying sorry. I do appreciate it.
DeleteWhile I was initially hurt and rattled by your rebuke, it did help me to quickly see what I said about the Holy Spirit was uncalled for. I understand how that could cause pain and so I had already put it upon my heart to forgive you for the words you chose. But it did just now help my own healing when you said sorry to me.
Like you so wisely said earlier, sometimes these types of challenges present themselves as an opportunity to bring us closer to God; to understand him better, to seek him out more, and to show our love for him and his people.
Thank you :)
Tracy.....Very well said and I pray others to consider what you just said, and go search the scriptures for yourself. Your logic is just that...logic. If one reads it, ponders and thinks, there is serious truth in your words that fortunately I have studied to know is true.
ReplyDeleteI was raised pretrib..and my dad was actually a personal friend of Oral Roberts. My dad lived to be 93 and around the last ten years of his life , dad had too many conflicting scriptures that changed his thinking. I myself had proven with many scriptures that pretrib could not fit, but never brought the topic up to my dad until his last year of life. I was delightfully amazed how his studies and mine arrived at the some conclusion...we simply will indeed see the AC arrive, perform the A of D, and THEN go through tribulation...to be raised up on "the last day"
Ok, there are many scriptures saying we will be raised up "at the last day." I am just going to "prime the pump." John 6:40..."And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth oh him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44..."No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:54..."Who so eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
I could speak volumes on this topic, but there are other sites for that. Let me say this....When you actually see the A.C. perform the A of D, I hope you have prepared your thinking and yourself physically for the tribulation ahead. For then as Mark 24 and other places say.., immediately after the tribulation of those days, look up and see the Lord Jesus coming in the clouds, as our redemption draweth nigh.
Please feel free to join several others here that have contacted me by email and let's reason together. There is so much more to be said. My email is strbldr@yahoo.com. I have prayed about saying this and I solemnly swear my intention is NOT to cause discord here, but rather bring attention to some I fear may fall away we Christians find ourselves in tribulation.
As times get exponentially tougher on us, I expect my emails to increase.
Thanks and God bless.
I have been reading your comments here at Unsealed, Revelation12, and another site for over a year now. It has always fascinated me why people would come to a site like Unsealed and constantly argue against one of the foundational beliefs the site is built upon. What would be their agenda? I suspect the vast and overwhelming readership here is comprised of believers looking for and longing for the soon return of Christ. That same readership, as reflected in the comments, are overwhelmingly believers in a pre-trib rapture of the Church as promised by the Lord. The question in my mind remains, “why the incessant comments against the beliefs of the Christians here”? What is the motivating reason for this? This commentary today has finally caused me to realize that I simply do not trust your motivations any longer. I used to think it was simply a doctrinal disagreement on your part with those of us who do believe in a pre-trib rapture. Today I sense the subtle and deceptive undertones of one who even the Apostle Paul warned the Church about. You state to Tracy, “Your logic is logic” This logic, since it is logic, now transforms into “serious” truth. What? You are personally fortunate that you have studied to “know” it is true. Unlike those of us who you are insinuating have not? The corollary to this of course is that all of the believers here who have also studied and come to an opposite belief are illogical, unfortunate, and belief falsely. You quote scriptures without any depth, and out of context to make your point. There was another who was adept at doing that very thing with Eve, and Jesus Himself. You would seem to have no fear in solemnly swearing when the very Lord Himself has admonished us to not do that. Your sworn oath to not cause discord here is completely and totally illogical, logically speaking, since you precede your sworn oath with an invitation to all to separate unto yourselves and reason together apart from those that are here. Excuse me please, but how is that not a way to stir up strife and contentiousness, the very meanings of the word discord? The Lord God says there are six things He hates, discord being one. You seem to be quite comfortable in walking very close to causing the very thing that God hates. I have yet to meet a true Christian that has ever been in danger of falling away due to tribulation. Every born again, washed in the blood Christian I have ever been around has always had their faith strengthened in times of trouble. The Word of God tells us in this lifetime we will have tribulations. God tells us we will be tried for a season, as gold is refined in the furnace. You denigrate the faith of the believers here by your constant rejoinders that they are weak and are probably going to fall away in times of trouble. The same Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith, is the Jesus who said, of all the Father has given me, none will ever be taken from out of My hand. The very source of this faith is from the Lord. Your premise logically means this faith will not be strong enough to see us through any trouble. Yet if I join with you, and reason with you, then I will be strong enough to overcome. Seriously? Jesus clearly and succinctly promises to the Church that we will be kept from the hour of trial coming upon the whole earth. Your position is that this is false. Logically, then Jesus is not completely trust worthy, or His words do not mean what the Word of God clearly says. Your invitation to gather with several others must then be a better way, apart from embracing the Blessed Hope, in the Words of our Lord. Jesus is promising us a Blessed Hope of rescue, through an abiding faith in Him, a faith given by the very Spirit of God. You are promising what you “know” to be “true”, the opposite of what Jesus promised. This may not be a salvation issue, but the spirit of your commentary raises many red flags. I`m sorry Mr. Foster I simply do not trust you and wish you would stop your ceaseless, and unrelenting attempts to weaken and to even seek now, to draw people away.
DeleteEdd...You are entitled to your opinions of my intentions. Only God and I know my true intentions, and it would not change your opinion if I restated it 1000 times. I will close this conversation with saying I can truly understand your feeling as you do...but I will have done my part that when we all find ourselves going through much tribulation...and see first hand what many here feel they will escape, maybe this will help a few. God bless you.
Delete@edd DEAR BROTHER IN CHRIST, A THREEFOLD BIG AMEN TO ALL YOU SAID!!
DeleteTHE RAPTURE WILL HAPPEN SOON TO PROVE ALL MID- & POST-TRIBBERS WRONG! MARANATHA 1 Corinthians 16:22
Annabel.....Proving whom has the right answer shouldn't be the prize. I would rather to have prepared for tribulation ahead and be wrong and be raptured out of here.....than to find myself scrambling for survival if we do find ourselves going through events excellently outlined by Tracy. She is just trying to sincerely warn others here of her beliefs we will have some very tough times ahead.
DeleteWhen I see Christians on the other side of the world being martyred for their faith in Christ, giving the ultimate sacrifice of their life...I ask myself why do so many think we get a pass out of here? Tracy and myself are just posting what we sincerely believe the Bible says. Tracy spoke with more substance however.
I would highly recommend Michael Snyder's book "The Rapture Verdict."
I have purchased many books on pretrib, prewrath, post trib, etc. This book so thoroughly explains what Tracy brilliantly outlined.
Anyway, God bless us all and I would love to be raptured with you all at any minute!
"I ask myself why do so many think we get a pass out of here?"
DeleteStan, you have mentioned this before. I might have suggested the dispensational views as to what happens to a group of people, etc within a certain time period ... As I think about this comment on why we should think we get a pass when other believers are martyred on the other side of the world; I think of our parents, our grandparents and their lifetimes. I didn't see anyone in the U.S. be martyred for their faith or heard of this happening to someone in these generations. Or, even in ours. Have you? And, I assume this would apply to other countries or previous generations before our grandparents and their lifetimes, etc. Have you? So, I think this analogy isn't applicable.
As to preparing for martyrdom or other horrible situations I assume in a psychological and/or a physical manner for persecution and going through difficult times, specifically, during The Tribulation, your in effect saying you do not believe in eternal security, I am thinking. Because, you are expressing concern (as well as Tracy) of us pre-tribbers being deceived and falling away in believing in Christ.
But, no one knows they would remain faithful and it doesn't matter their views on the timing of the rapture. I say this in that none of us can say we will not be deceived because we have prepared for the Tribulation and so forth. Can we? I don't think so. Only God knows who will remain faithful ... So, the issues you bring up along with Tracy are mute. You just don't know or anyone how they will react or respond to any kind of persecution whether today, tomorrow or during The Tribulation. I don't think so anyway. I think if a person can say they are not deceived because they believe in a mid or post or pre-wrath rapture and therefore will not fall away is presumptuous and seems like one is, in effect, saving themselves.
It would therefore basically come down (yourself, Tracy and others holding to these views) to not believing in OSAS (once saved always saved).
Maybe this is the subject that needs to be discussed, after all.
I see Tracy the sudden destruction as what happens after the rapture. It will be destructive and sudden as a woman in travail which it explains in verse three. Much chaos will take place as cars, buses, trains, planes etc crash. Babies and children will be taken ... loved ones are missing ... It is unfathomable. I also believe there will be a large earthquake after the pre-rapture because in Revelation 6:12 the sixth seal is opened. I think we are living now in the fifth seal time frame. We will not be taken by surprise because we are waiting and watching for the Blessed Hope whereas the world is going about what concerns them ... these are unbelievers at this time. They will be caught unaware and there will be no escape. The time of Jacobs trouble will begin.
ReplyDeleteThe believers today are part of the age of grace. After the pre-rapture those left behind who become the tribulation saints will be living in a way similar to the Old Testament days because the Holy Spirit will no longer seal believers by taking residence within a believer. Many will be martyred for their faith. The sealed 144,000 persons from the 12 tribes of Israel will complete what God has ordained for them to preach the gospel to the world. Who knows what all really will happen and how things will take place ... It is not a salvation issue.
We see that the apostle Paul said not all will die at the pre-rapture but, we shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye after the dead in Christ arevraised first and we shall be in Heaven with Jesus.
Who is left at the end of this tribulation period - are those who remained alive will be part of the sheep and goat judgement and the sheep will enter the millennium and repopulate the Earth. They do not have glorified bodies.
There really isn't a need here to push for us pre-rapture tribbers to have discernment.
To me discernment is in believing in the gospel of Christ and not being deceived by false teachers who do not believe in the finished work of Christ.
Food for thought, Stan, that the passages in John on the last day are not about the timing of the resurrection. It is rather a certainty to those who believe in Christ of a resurrection (to be with Christ). It isn't about a rapture as this or the church age was not revealed in John. It is about Jesus keeping those the Father has given to Him. John 6:37. We will not be a part of the second death in other words. Source: The PreTrib Rapture Center, Thomas Ice.
ReplyDeleteFrom Garrett Parrish at Bible Prophecy Fulfilled he discusses the last hour from 1 John 2:18 and the hour of the graves being opened in John 5:28. Also, he talks about Matthew 20:6 and the last hour of the workers in the vineyard. The correlation between the last hour with the last day.
The context of John 6 is remarkably the last day of the Old Covenant which was Jesus' death and those who believe in Him will be raised up in the New Covenant (after his death, burial, amd resurrection). This is awesome. I love it.
Poignant & interesting quotes from Israel over the last few days
ReplyDeleteIsrael is not a ‘new-born’ anymore.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/244696
70 years is the blink of an eye in historical terms.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-on-israels-70th-were-just-getting-started/
To StanFoster: Your view that the church goes through the Tribulation makes no sense on so many biblical levels. Let me just mention the one overarching macro reason why you're wrong: The Time of Jacob's Trouble or the Day of The Lord, or the Tribulation is specifically the last seven of Daniel's seventy sevens. This is the time when our Lord will try and test and ultimately save Israel as a nation. Why, pray tell would those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit be put through the awful time of God judging the entire world? Would God the Father curse us, who have the HS inside of us with these terrible judgments? Why do you suppose Christ is compared to "the door" and the ark? Is it not because we find real rescue, "harpazo" (look that word up) through Christ? BTW, just the very meaning of the word harpazo alone is proof. The word means to be violently and quickly snatched out of harm's way. I'm sorry your views are so biblically untenable.
ReplyDeleteJohn C.
To StanFoster: The rapture is unavoidably scriptural. Your words indicate that either you do not believe in a rapture (harpazo - look it up) or that you believe in a post-trib rapture. What sense would that make? Did not Christ say that he goes to prepare a place for us and where He is we will be also? So Christ stated that we are to be with him in heaven, in our abode that he has built just for us but as soon as we are raptured, we boom, appear back on Earth for the 1000 year reign? See it makes no sense. Raptured to meet the Lord in the air but then instantaneously back on Earth for the millennial reign? Makes no sense. And again, if we are raptured AFTER the tribulation, what then are we being "harpazoed" from? Taken violently and swiftly out of harm's way? At the end of the trib there is no more danger.
ReplyDeleteJohn C.
John...I am not here to debate, but just state. Time will do the debating for you and I.
ReplyDeleteI sense a hand on the Ban Stan lever , so I am backing off.
726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).
DeleteChurch harpazo'd: 1 Thess. 4:17 "Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:"
Your view has no harpazo, no rescue from harm therefore it is not biblical.
John C.
BTW, I'm not debating, I'm quoting the Word of God as is revealed in the bible.
https://www.egypttoday.com/Article/1/48251/Romania-First-European-country-to-move-embassy-to-Jerusalem
ReplyDeleteI'd just like to point out to the Post Tribbers here the one thing you should perhaps consider above all things is this. How do you reconcile 2 different gospels being preached at the same time? Paul said, If anyone teaches another gospel than that I've preached let them be anathema. So, with that simple premise - that would make the 2 witnesses and the angel decreeing the gospel anathema for they are teaching you must not only Believe in the FINISHED work on the Cross of Jesus Christ, but they now add you must "follow the commandments and refuse to worship or take the mark of the Beast." You may twist and attempt to pervert every other Pre-Trib Rapture concept as much as you'd like, and I believe wrongly, but there simply cannot now or ever be 2 different gospels preached simultaneously. Therefore, we must be gone. You might want to study this out for yourself and attempt to turn it into a pretzel, it doesn't work. I've already done the work and yes, I also hear from Holy Spirit. Blessings - Sherry
ReplyDeleteSherry - Thank you for your question, but I am not sure I understand what you mean by there being two gospels. Aren't we now commanded to follow God's commandments?
ReplyDeleteJesus tells us in Matthew 22:37-40 that the two greatest commandments are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind AND to love our neighbors as ourselves. All the Law and Prophets hang on these two commandments.
Elsewhere in the bible we also find scripture that tells us that whoever keeps His word is perfected in Him (1 John 2:3-6), to walk after his commandments (2 John 1:6), and if anyone loves Him, he will obey his teachings (John 14:23-24).
By taking the mark of the beast and by worshipping his image and name, you would be committing the ONE UNFORGIVABLE SIN which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:32).
The angels and the two witnesses are not adding anything new to the one and only eternal gospel. They are just proclaiming this same gospel to all the world. Remember, Matthew 24:14 says, "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world AND THEN the end will come."
God Bless
Nice Try - No Cigar. We are living in the Age of Grace, the Church Age where our Salvation is not dependent upon our following the Commandments. If it were, none of us would make it. That's why it's called Grace and the FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS. We are admonished to Love - which fulfills all the commandments. You have twisted the discussion of Blasphemy with the taking of the Mark without scriptural authority. They are two entirely separate issues. Paul spoke of "his gospel" only after Jesus' Crucifixion because we had moved from Kingdom Gospel to Salvation by Faith in Christ alone. Once the Church is removed, Jacob's Trouble begins and the Kingdom Gospel returns to the forefront. That's why Paul was so clear about "preaching another gospel" - the Judaisers were teaching Kingdom Gospel - Jesus +, just as Jesus did before His Crucifixion because the payment for sin had not been made. Paul's gospel was Jesus alone and that is how those of the Church age are saved Jesus + absolutely nothing.
DeleteThe end will come doesn't mean the last day - it means The Day of The Lord which lasts for 7 years. You simply cannot understand the Day of the Lord without the massive background of the Old Testament. We live in "the pause" - the Church Age. Once the Pause ends and the business of the Pause is completed, then we "return" to where history left off and it resumes with a different set of rules. Only by Right Division can you see the unfolding of the plan of God.
Having said that - It should be abundantly clear you have not persuaded one person in this blog, yet you clearly are in opposition to the stated beliefs of those who so graciously and generously provide this format for our interaction. I believe it is rude and uncaring of the Creators and Moderators of this site as well as other Christian brothers to continue to abuse the hospitality of Unsealed to teach a message only one other agrees with you on.
If you believe you are correct, and you obviously do, then may I suggest the Gracious thing to do would be to create your own Website, post your own articles which would clearly dispute everything posted here and preach from your own pulpit rather than attempting to proselytize another's work and fellowship. You've made your point here, we disagree and it's time to move on and do your own thing. Just my opinion. Blessings - Sherry
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ReplyDeleteWhile the debate is raging elsewhere, I thought I would bring the original topic back under the spotlight, & highlight a poignant alignment of dates that reinforces who is really Sovereign & in control of all things.
ReplyDeleteI just came across an article noting how the Palestinians rioters were celebrating Hitlers birthday, so I looked into when he was born.
As it transpires, Israel is celebrating it's 70th anniversary on the same day as was Hitler's birth date (April 20 - Iyar 4/5).
Clearly, this is Sovereign irony.
Hitler attempted to wipe out the Jews, but instead, the Jews are celebrating the 70th anniversary of Israel as a modern nation, this coming ~72 years after Hitler is dead, the Third Reich a bad memory of Germany & the world, & Nazism relegated to the misfits of evil hearted people.
The Palestinians who are flying Nazi flags & celebrating Hilter's birth date would best stand back & view the lessons of history, as should all others whose goal is to demonize &/or eliminate the Jewish/Israelite people.
Additionally, Israel has a job to do & they will complete their mission, simply because YHVH has said so. He is Sovereign & His Will will be done at the end of this, the sixth day, & also in the seventh day.
Excellent point and thank you for bringing us sweetly back to the point. Let us never forget - history has shown that what any nation does or attempts to do to Israel will face that fate as a judgement. Haman was hung on the noose he had prepared for Mordecai. We see it over and over again in the Old Testament - be careful the pit you dig for another - Prov 26:27. This is my concern as we approach the 70th Anniversary. The US has done much to repent of their attempts for years to divide the land of Israel, yet there still seems to be a push for a "negotiated settlement" which always means Israel gives up more, gets promises and riots and bombs. As you so eloquently pointed out - the Palestinians (whatever that means) are picking up the baton for Hitler's Final Solution in conjunction with Iran and others in Europe and the US (sounds Psalm 83ish). Should we be removed prior to that, then certainly those remaining in the US would agree to the Dividing of the Land which means the US would then be physically divided. It is already spiritually divided so the process is well under way - but unless we're wrong about where we are on the Rapture timeline and there is much time left and the US does a full turn around, she will be physically divided as well. I see the left and right coasts massively damaged and the new Madrid fault line very literally splitting the US into two halves at some point during The Tribulation. But, that's just me - not a Thus Sayeth The Lord. Blessings - Sherry
DeleteHopefully this can add to the conversation: https://www.unsealed.org/2017/06/in-moment-10-reasons-i-believe-in-pre.html
ReplyDeleteMy story is kind of interesting. I was initially pan-trib and generally unsure of rapture timing (similar to Fellowship Bible Chapel in Ohio), but through extensive study in 2009-2010 became pretty set on the pre-wrath view. Through eight more years of study I've found myself happenstance almost completely aligned with the traditional, premillennial, pre-trib view and from what I've seen and understand I haven't found any particularly strong arguments for the pre-wrath or post-trib views that would persuade.
That being said, I never want to be entrenched in a non-salvation issue. It's important to keep an open mind, so I will always keep studying, learning, and growing as the LORD sees fit.
For further reading if anyone is interested:
https://www.unsealed.org/2015/03/will-there-be-rapture.html
https://www.unsealed.org/2015/04/extra-biblical-evidence-for-pre-trib.html
https://www.unsealed.org/2017/08/the-letters-to-seven-churches.html
https://www.unsealed.org/2017/05/the-celestial-c-section-defense-of.html
https://www.unsealed.org/2017/08/who-is-male-child-of-revelation-12.html
https://www.unsealed.org/2017/08/conservative-scholars-agree-male-child.html
https://www.unsealed.org/2016/12/revelation-12-escape-to-place-prepared.html
Apostasia
Thank you brother Gary. Deeply appreciated. And thank you for letting me voice my heart here.
DeleteYour quite welcome. In an uncivilized and loveless age it's encouraging to see love and civility among Christian brothers and sisters. It's the mark of a true Christian and is the biblically-defined method for showing the world that we know God.
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